The Grand Narrative

Why Korean Girls Don’t Say No: Contraception Commercials, Condom Use and Double Standards in South Korea

Posted in Korean Advertisements, Korean Commercials, Korean Education, Korean Feminism, Korean Sexuality by James Turnbull on December 10, 2008

ec849cec9ab8eb8c80ec9790-ec9eaced9599eca491ec9db8-eab980ec868cebafb8-ed94bcec9e84ec95bd-eab491eab3a0-cf-kim-so-mi-korean-contraceptive-pill-commercial-aCan a 22-year old Korean woman really be ignorant of the contraceptive pill? In this day and age? And if not…then why would she lie about it?

The woman in question is Kim So-mi (김소미), a student at Seoul National University who appeared in one of Korea’s first television commercials for the pill after a ban on them was lifted in 2006, and who claimed that “she only found out about the pill when she was doing the shoot” (정작 김씨는 광고를 찍으면서 피임약에 대해 처음으로 알게 됐다고 털어놨다). Putting aside for a moment the fact that that was rather a strange time to discover what one was appearing in a commercial for, then at first glance her claim appears reasonable: based on my own and especially female friends’ (Korean and Western) experiences and discussions with them, there are indeed a great many otherwise smart and sophisticated 20 and 30-something Korean women who are shockingly ignorant of sexual matters, and, as I explain here, knowledge of contraceptive methods and healthy attitudes to sex tend not to be suddenly and miraculously acquired upon their wedding nights either.

kwon-sang-woo-eab68cec8381ec9ab0-sohn-tae-young-ec8690ed839cec9881-wedding-eab2b0ed98bcOn the other hand, despite oft-cited taboos against premarital sex in Korea, in the most recent comprehensive survey that I’m aware of (PDF here) not only did over half of Korean 18-30 year-olds report having had sex before marriage (albeit with large differences between the sexes, as I’ll discuss), but even recent celebrities’ bulging waistlines at weddings are not creating the scandal that they used to, which is very surprising considering the high moral standards that Korean female celebrities especially are normally held to.  Not only do those taboos belie a large amount of premarital sex in practice then, arguably this is increasingly publicly tolerated too, albeit with strong and enduring double-standards and still quite some way to go before any couples can be open about it as I’ll explain.

But given that environment, then it is not unreasonable to question a 22 year-old woman’s complete ignorance of the very existence of the pill, particularly someone whose supposed intelligence is emphasized throughout the commercial (”똑똑하다” in the stillshot above means “smart”), the pharmaceutical company Organon International making sure to not only make mention of the prestigious university she attends, and presenting a rather more bookish-looking version of her in the commercial below than the stillshot would suggest, but also to stress that taking responsibility for one’s own contraception was “the smart way to do love”, which sounds only slightly less strange and forced a choice of words in the original Korean – 좋은 사랑을 하려면 진짜 똑똑해야 한다고 생각해요 – than it does in English (update: sorry, but video has since been deleted, and that was the only one I could find).

In this stress on her intelligence, I think the commercial would be somewhat endearing to most long-term expats, for it is really quintessentially Korean: can you imagine the pill being advertised in any Western country using a rather nerdish-looking undergraduate from an elite university? As such, it reminds me also of early Korean commercials for deodorants (unfortunately too old for me to find a video of), which seemed to devote more attention to motherly figures dispensing advice to daughters on how and why to use it rather than on their supposed benefits for attracting the opposite sex, or alternatively how Korean blind date shows will often feature the blind-date chooser’s parents also, not merely to watch in the audience but as integral parts of the show. All of which are healthy reminders that while Korea appears to be very similar to Western countries on the surface – they use contraception, they wear deodorant (albeit only in the summer), they have dating programs…and so on – in reality the narratives and social codes operating behind most things are sometimes very different.

korean-contraceptive-pill-advertisement-ed94bcec9e84ec95bd-eab491eab3a0But this veneer of modernity, however, definitely has its dark sides. Fellow blogger and writer Gord Sellar, for instance (whom I think I take the phrase “veneer of modernity” from), recently briefly mentions in passing how the mere trappings of a modern driving system – laws, speed cameras, sidewalks, traffic police, and so on – without the backdrop of a well-developed driving ethos as it were produces something quite unlike (and rather more dangerous than) the experience of driving in most developed countries. And in this particular case, a mere veneer of modern, rational notions of sexuality becomes much less benign when a woman like Kim So-mi not only feels compelled to defend her appearance in a commercial for the pill, but also by choosing to do so not by pointing out how empowering it genuinely is to women but rather – through claiming ignorance of what it even was – by distancing herself from the sexually-active women who would be aware of it and use it. Moreover, her preceding statement that she “had nothing to feel guilty about” – 마음에 찔리는 일을 하는 것도 아니라고 생각한다 – is, while true, someone at odds with that sentiment, and merely serves to highlights the forced nature of her feigned ignorance all the more.

(In passing, I wonder how that relates – if at all – to Schering’s advertisements for the pill which feature Western celebrity lookalikes rather than Koreans. That’s supposedly Catherine Zeta-Jones on the above and left for instance (source), and others in the series can be found here, here, and here)

I could also mention that claiming complete ignorance of the pill somewhat compromises her credibility as a role model, which may well be why she hasn’t appeared in any further commercials for Organon International since, but you get the idea. And no, I don’t think I’m making too much of this one example, for it is this theme of relinquishing of sexual responsibility for the sake of saving face by unmarried Korean women that strongly comes across from the results of the aforementioned survey on condom use in Korea, and which I’ll discuss for the remainder of this post. But before I do, I should at the very least mention and link to three much more serious cases where decidedly archaic Korean attitudes to women’s sexuality caused genuine harm: first, that of Baek Ji-young (백지영) of course, as I briefly discuss here; next, demonstrating that that still has a great deal of resonance even eight years later, the case of Korean singer Ivy (아이비), whose career was significantly harmed by the merest suggestion of sexual impropriety earlier this year (and despite the rumours ultimately being proved false); and finally and even more alarmingly, that of Ok So-ri (옥소리), who will soon be going to jail for two years for adultery, despite it being common knowledge that tens if not hundreds of thousands of Korean men commit adultery every day. For more on that, see here, here and here.

(Update 1: I couldn’t find any information about what Organon thought of Kim So-mi’s comments, but I did find more here about the selection process for the commercial)

(Update 2: Ok So-ri ultimately received a six-month suspended jail sentence. For more on the final verdict, see herehere, and here)

ec9790ec9db4eca688-ec9888ebb0a9ec9d80-ecbd98eb8f94ec9cbceba19c-eab491eab3a0-korean-condom-commercialBut first, let me address the question of why commercials for condoms specifically were allowed as early as 2004, despite the ban on commercials for contraceptives in general not being lifted until 2006 like I said. According to this source from just before the Organon commercial appeared, the reason is that those condom commercials were only used:

…as part of a public campaign promoting condom use, pushed by the Korea Federation for HIV/AIDS Prevention (KAIDS).

Recently, however, condom manufacturers such as Unidus have been promoting their products on cable television networks and the Internet, and are considering spreading the advertisements to national television.

Although the authorities have allowed television commercials for sex-related products, it remains to be seen whether the bigger television broadcasters accept the advertisements, with concerns that the commercials for condoms and contraceptives might offend viewers

This caused quite a bit of confusion and consternation amongst Korean observers at the time, and any Korean readers among you might be interested in this Korean blogger’s take on events that I’ve just found as I type this, but for the sake of getting this post up sooner rather than later I’ll have to skip translating it for non-Korean readers for now sorry (but I’m still happy to do so; just give me a buzz).

Some Reliable Statistics on Premarital Sex in South Korea (for a change)

korean-unmarried-couple-thinking-about-sex

( Source )

For now though, let’s move onto the results of the survey (and for a more sociological discussion of the subject, see here and here). While it is possibly a little dated (the data-gathering was conducted in 2003), given its rigorous methodology and so on then I’d give much more credence to its results than, say, headline-grabbing ones in newspapers like this vacuous one from today (but still, thanks to ROK Drop for it, and see here for Robert Neff’s take on it at The Marmot’s Hole) or this one conducted by a television station last year. It also happens to be very short and readable, and so if you’ve read this far into the post then I highly recommend spending an extra ten minutes reading it for yourself, although I will do my best to present and analyze the most important results here. To start then:

  • 27% of men 7.8% of women had sex before the age of 18
  • “Contrary to the reported Korean situation, there are no significant gender differences in the rate of premarital sex and age at first intercourse compared to that in many other liberal, developed societies.”
  • “Compared to other [developed] societies, although there are fewer sexually experienced youths under 18 in Korea, there has nevertheless been an increase in premarital sex and a substantial lowering of the age at first sexual intercourse….the rate for females has risen more rapidly than that for males.”

Already you’ll notice potential issues of  over and under-reporting by men and women respectively throughout the survey, although in Korea in particular there is likely to be much more to the disparities than mere inflated egos and pretenses of feminine virtue as we’ll soon see. As for those figures for teenage sex specifically, they are clearly reason in themselves for Koreans to have a big rethink about just how effective their policy of sticking their heads in the sand has been so far: not only are they increasingly comparable to those for Westerners over time, odds are that Westerners at least will have received more than the handful of hours in front of a fifteen year-old video that counts for sex education in Korea (for students lucky enough to be living in Seoul that is).  They also wouldn’t have to contend with pharmacists refusing to sell them condoms or any other other contraceptives either, nor internet portal sites refusing to allow them to conduct a mere internet search for information about how to use and buy condoms without presenting proof (via their national id number) that they’re over 18.

For an excellent discussion of public attitudes to teenage sexuality in the 1990s that provide a backdrop to those results, I highly recommend reading this post at Gusts of Popular Feeling, and it’s clear that little has changed over a decade later. Moreover, it’s just a thought, but in the almost complete absence of any information or adults talking to them about sex, then I invite readers to speculate about just whom exactly might be providing Korean teenage girls especially with most of their sexual role models instead:

the-wondergirls.jpg

  • In December 2005, there had been 3,829 cumulative reported cases of HIV/AIDS, of which males accounted for 90.7%. Of the new HIV infections among Korean women in 2004, all were attributed to heterosexual contact.

By August this year, the total had risen to 5717, with almost exactly the same proportions of men to women. The survey notes that with such relatively low numbers, if women “were able to ensure that their partners use condoms consistently and properly, [then] HIV/AIDS would be prevented effectively.” They’re not, as we shall see, but on the positive side it should be noted that the majority of Koreans no longer see HIV/AIDS as a mere foreign, gay disease that doesn’t affect them.

  • According to previous research, mostly conducted in the five years before this survey, “the percentage of consistent condom use among young people as well as in the general population was relatively lower than in other countries. It was found that only 18.6% of never married, sexually active young people aged 18-29 used condoms consistently…[and]…the reported condom use at first sexual intercourse was 18.7% for men and 13.4% for women. The reported condom use of high school students was much lower at 10%.”

Personally, I’m surprised that that last figure was even as high as 10%, given that vending machines in public toilets and from older friends would be about the only place high school students would obtain them. But of greater note already, albeit not a hugely significant statistical difference in this particular case, is the I think counter-intuitive finding (to Westerners) that more men than women reported using condoms the first time they had sex. Indeed, this disparity continued afterwards:

  • “More men (17.3%) than women (13.6%) reported having consistent condom use with a steady partner…for other partner types, consistent condom use was less reported by women than by men. For experience with condoms, more men than women reported having used condoms.”

Why? Partially it is because Korean men are much more sexually active (or would promiscuous be a better word?):

  • 50.4% of the single 19-30 year-old subjects reported having had sexual intercourse, but this disguises huge differences between men and women (67.3% and 30% respectively).
  • “Men reported a higher proportion of sexual experiences with two or more multiple partners during the previous 12 months than women did (57.2% vs 41.0%).”
  • “Single men were four times more likely to be [sexually] experienced than women.”
  • “According to a recent study, the median age at first sexual intercourse for Korean men (21.0 years) was three years lower than that for Korean women, even though men marry, on average, later than women do….This difference may be interpreted as an indication that young men have sex with prostitutes or older experienced women. About 13% of young men age 20-29 reported that their sexual partners were prostitutes.”

And this in turn led to them being much more confident and knowledgeable about using them than Korean women:

korean-unmarried-couple-having-sex

( Source )

  • “Men were more likely to agree somewhat or completely that condoms protected against HIV and other STDs.”
  • “Compared with women…men reported a higher level of self-efficacy in condom use when they were drunken.”

But this is of course only half the story, and somewhat of  a chicken before the…er…egg one at that. For if you haven’t guessed already, the survey concludes that:

…these gender differences in sexual initiation and experience can be explained by strong, gender-based, double standards and values in the traditional culture. Single women in Korea are still expected to be passive and virgins at marriage. Although Korean women’s level of education and participation in the labor force has rapidly risen (albeit the latter still at the lowest levels in the OECD – James), the imposed attitudes on their expected social roles have not dramatically changed yet. Korean society still places emphasis on women’s virginity at marriage and women are supposed to be initiated into sex by their husbands.

And thus:

Premarital sex may be a more serious concern to women because of their vulnerability….young sexually experienced females reported that they had been pressured by their boyfriends or other men to have sex as a proof of their love and been forced not to use a condom at first intercourse.

durex-condoms-er-penetrate-the-korean-marketWhich makes Durex’s depiction on the right of its…er…penetration of the Korean market in August this year (source) not a particularly accurate reflection of current Korean sexual mores, and unfortunately the women in it are less likely to be supposed role models as chosen simply because every public event in Korea requires scantily-clad females known as “narrator models.” More seriously though, the survey clears up a great deal of almost instinctive confusion I and I think many readers would have had recently over newspaper headlines such as “Women Inactive in Preventing Unwanted Pregnancy,” and “Korean Women Say Birth Control is Men’s Responsibility“, although I must confess that I never expected to be so, well…true, especially as my female Korean friends have all stated that they have to contend with Korean men often refusing to wear condoms, which unfortunately probably says much more about my choice of Korean female friends than it does of Korean men and women as a whole.

But I’m not merely covering all my bases when I say that it’s not all doom and gloom for Korean men and (especially) women, for I have seen teenage sex education centers, for instance, pop up around Busan since I first moved here, and, just like so many other Korean issues on which Koreans only appear to be unanimous and monolithic in their opinions to non-Korean speakers, the notion that contraception is solely a man’s responsibility is hardly a universally accepted and uncontested notion amongst young Koreans especially, as this blog post (for one) demonstrates (again, let me know if you’d like a translation). Moreover, and to put this post and myself to bed, while I may occasionally sound like a broken record when I point out this next (but someone has to), I think I’ve more than adequately demonstrated that increasingly sexual images of women in commercials  and advertisements in recent years can and are having an effect on these double-standards also. Combined with knowledge that the English-language media and books on Korea especially tend to have a considerable lag behind trends in Korea then, it’s going to be very interesting to see the results of any similar survey in the future. Watch this space.

korean-unmarried-couple-having-sexor-not

( Korean women taking responsibility for contraception…only in the movies? Source )

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57 Responses

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  1. Brian said, on December 11, 2008 at 1:08 am

    I’ll be brief: interesting and well-done. Thanks for this and for the other posts I still need to read.

  2. Mark said, on December 11, 2008 at 8:53 am

    Sex…the Ryugyong Hotel of South Korea.

  3. James Turnbull said, on December 11, 2008 at 9:21 am

    Brian, thanks!

    Mark, sorry, but I don’t get it. I am only half way into my first coffee though…

  4. Stig said, on December 11, 2008 at 11:03 am

    Nice post! Musthave taken a bit of time to write! What’s with the Wondergirls appearing just before the AIDS section? Are you saying they encourage risky behavoir?

  5. James Turnbull said, on December 11, 2008 at 11:19 am

    Stig, thanks, but no, not exactly. If you read the section just before rather than after the picture, you’ll see that I’m arguing that in the absence of adults talking about to young Koreans about sex and information being unavailable on the internet or at school, then groups like the Wondergirls are correspondingly more important as sexual role models for them.

  6. Mark said, on December 11, 2008 at 10:03 pm

    James, the Ryugyong Hotel in Pyongyang dominates the city…you can’t ignore it. However, the North Koreans amazingly do! It isn’t in the paintings or stamps, etc., and tour guides refuse to acknowledge its existence.

    Kinda like South Korea’s promiscuity.

  7. James Turnbull said, on December 11, 2008 at 10:19 pm

    Ah…that’s quite a good analogy really. I did recall the name after I finished my second coffee posted my reply earlier, but I didn’t realize that it wasn’t represented in stamps and paintings and so on.

  8. Mark said, on December 12, 2008 at 12:11 am

    Coffee works wonders. :lol:

  9. Rwellor said, on December 12, 2008 at 1:43 pm

    Great post as usual… works well with another post (at this here URL: http://culturebook.livejournal.com/22769.html) I was reading about a “crying starfish” tendency among Korean women. This learned (or unlearned, depending on how you look at it) passivity is much more understandable in the context you’ve given here, first of actual inexperience and second, of the necessity to continue to act inexperienced regardless of actual experience or desire.

    So I suppose, as you seem to sort of argue, the only answer is even filthier and more suggestive advertisements!

    ;-)

  10. sonam said, on December 12, 2008 at 4:09 pm

    Corroborating evidence: I have been dating a woman from Seoul for about 6 months now. She was a 28 year old virgin when we met. Her “sex ed.” was pretty close to zero – I’m not exagerrating – like understanding the basic mechanics of sex. It’s been an interesting experience for me (28 yr old American) – I like to think I’m championing women’s rights and personal freedom….. Helping her to enjoy life more (not just sex). Convincing her to take the pill took months – of course now she understands its (obvious to westerners?) advantages.

    It is almost disturbing how ignorant the Koreans I’m around seem to be (despite their devotion to their studies). These folks are, to my understanding, upper middle class and upper class – people who in western culture are typically far more educated and have had diverse experiences. It’s just strange….

    Have you seen the “Hug AIDS” advertisement – I get to watch it on the bus about 4 times a day. I don’t speak Korean but the idea seems pretty clear. Koreans are afraid of people with AIDS – Wasn’t that like 20 years ago?

  11. sonam said, on December 12, 2008 at 4:11 pm

    By the way – I love that “veneer of modernity” – so true. And if the drivers here aren’t the worst I’ve ever seen…..

  12. oranckay said, on December 13, 2008 at 5:38 pm

    I agree with most of your conclusions but think there are a few problematic points along the way. A few of those…

    I don’t see how “정작 김씨는 광고를 찍으면서 피임약에 대해 처음으로 알게 됐다고 털어놨다” necessarily means she only discovered what the shoot was about when she arrived. There is nothing about the sentence that forces one to interpret it to mean that she didn’t know “of” 피임약, and since no Korean speaker would assume it is even within the range of possibility that she hadn’t even heard of the stuff, the Korean speaker will thus understand the sentence to mean that she only learned how great it is after she started working with them. Ah.. come to think of it, “광고를 찍으면서” does not mean “while shooting” here, either. In this context it can just as easily, and given what they’re saying with the whole sentence much more likely, that this phrase refers to “the process of making the advertisement.” So say, for expl, she knew there existed some sort of 약 for 피임, but when they asked her if she’d do the shoot she went and learned more about it, or they educated her, or whatnot, and by the time she signed the contract she already knew more than the average Korean of either gender about 피임약.

    Re this:

    “….not only did over half of Korean 18-30 year-olds report having had sex before marriage (albeit with large differences between the sexes, as I’ll discuss), but even recent celebrities’ bulging waistlines at weddings are not creating the scandal that they used to, which is very surprising considering the high moral standards that Korean female celebrities especially are normally held to…”

    Again I agree with your ultimate conclusions but I think one needs to take into account that not all pre-marital sex is the same. There is a difference between just having sex and having sex with someone you are going to, or intend to, marry, and traditional/Joseon and even 20th Korea saw this as a big difference. Having sex on the premise of, and as consummation of, commitment, was the normal, socially acceptable way to have pre-marital sex. So valued was a woman’s virginity that a decent man could only sleep with her if he was ready to “take responsibility for her,” as the saying would go, and so on, because that’s what sleeping with her was supposed to imply. Fiction and non-fiction narratives (many known to me personally) are full of this kind of thinking. I know couples that decided not to have sex because they weren’t sure they were getting married, that didn’t have sex because he was going to the military and he wanted to be sure he’d come back alive before permanently “making her his,” as that would be too traumatic for her, and of couples that lived together (and obviously were having sex) before being married and it was acceptable because they were going to marry, had family approval, but couldn’t marry because maybe the girl’s elder sister wasn’t married off yet or they were both still in college but both sets of parents wanted to get them married after graduation, or one of those odd reasons. Maybe no money; whatever. Anyway, the best example I can think of all this is classical Korean prose fiction (since that’s all I ever think about). There is plenty of premarital sex in traditional Korean prose fiction (”novels”), graphic in only a few exceptions I’m afraid, but we are at least told that it is happening. The reason this fiction wasn’t thrown into the flames at Confucian book burning parties (and there were Joseon poets who did indeed call for novels to be burned for their bad influence) was because whenever there is pre-marital sex the parties always end up married. In fact you know they’re going to marry before you get to the end because they slept together. The most readily available example would be “the most classic, all time” story Chunhayng Jeon. The most “대표적” Korean story of all time and it involves “happily ever after” pre-marital sex. So it’s one thing for a celebrity to have a bulging waistline at her wedding and another for a video to surface of her having a romp with one of her producers, for example, or even to shoot a fully nude bed scene in a feature film. Not that the double standard you speak of doesn’t exist, I just don’t think there’s necessarily a big contradiction between “bulging waistlines” and “high moral standards” in this case as you’ve stated your examples.

    To bother you a little more… this stuck out….

    …Ok So-ri (옥소리), who will soon be going to jail for two years for adultery, despite it being common knowledge that tens if not hundreds of thousands of Korean men commit adultery every day…

    The reason all those however many Korean men committing adultery “every day” is because their wives, or the husbands of the wives they are committing adultery with, have not filed legal complaints. Adultery is only prosecutable if a spouse files charges. There are many people in Korean society who are openly “committing adultery” but their spouses (wives) aren’t taking action against them. Everyone considers Ok Sori’s husband an ass, and it seems to me the general talk is that he always blew away a lot of money, and he’s filing adultery charges against her to use that as leverage in the divorce settlement. In other words, she could give him a lot of money and then not have to go to jail. Whatever the case, this was the original idea behind the criminalization of adultery, just in the opposite direction – to protect women by giving them leverage when their husbands go off and shack up with some other woman. It has usually been women’s organizations that supported the criminalization of adultery, at least old(er) school women’s orgs, like the 한국가정법률상담소, which was quoted in this Hankyoreh article re the recent Constitutional Court decision.

    Kwak Bae-hee of the Korea Legal Aid Center for Family Relations said it“cannot be denied that the adultery law still serves to protect Korean women in a real way.”

    “That’s not to say that the adultery law absolutely must be kept on the books, however, and other ways need to be found to protect women so that the adultery law isn’t needed any more,” she said.

  13. oranckay said, on December 13, 2008 at 6:19 pm

    Come to think of it, you almost wonder if the reason progressive, younger feminist groups want the adultery law done away with is because women are having affairs for a change. I’ve seen them argue it should be abolished because the state shouldn’t be peeking in bedrooms, etc, but can’t remember seeing them say it’s unfairly used against women or is itself sexist.

  14. James Turnbull said, on December 13, 2008 at 9:05 pm

    Thanks for the comments everyone, and sorry for taking so long (for me) to reply to them, although in my defense I’m rather tired today, have a surprising number of comments today (must be cold out there), and on top of that have a baby strapped to my back as I type this. No, really…what, you mean there’s other ways to spend Saturday nights?!!

    Mark, it does indeed. And while, alas, I no longer have the time to hang out looking pretentious in my local Starbucks to drink it, I do get far more female attention than I ever did back then by taking my eldest daughter with me to buy some ground coffee to take home every weekend. Until it’s Fair Trade coffee comes in a mild or medium version though, I have to renounce all I used to stand for by only buying my favorite “Breakfast Blend” or the “Shade-grown Mexico” ones…mmm, you can really taste the shade…

    RWellor, thanks, although it did indeed take me a couple of clicks to figure out what a “crying starfish” was: a bit crude perhaps, but apt.

    So I suppose, as you seem to sort of argue, the only answer is even filthier and more suggestive advertisements! ;-)

    LOL to that, and although as a heterosexual male I’m by no means averse to more of those, it is certainly possible for me to exaggerate the effects of more depictions of sexually-assertive women’s behavior in advertisements and commercials over time specifically, and concurrence doesn’t imply causation either. Having said that, something’s responsible for all the changes to women’s and men’s body images and notions of sexuality and so on I’ve seen and discussed since I first came to Korea, and given their ubiquity and their by definition attention-seeking nature, then I do think that cumulatively they’re at least as influential as changing roles in movies and dramas and so on.

    Rather an overanalysis of your comment, but then you’d expect nothing less, yes? :D And by the way, good news about the conference, eh? Erm…when and where is it again? Do you remember what I said I’d give a presentation on because I certainly don’t?

    Sonam,

    yeah, it is a good phrase, although I’m sure I can find a much earlier reference to it either on Gord Sellar’s blog or in his comments on this blog somewhere if I take a look. By coincidence, the day after I wrote this post I saw it again on either an entirely different blog or in a newspaper (I should have made a note, sorry), which reminds me of how really good phrases ultimately tend to get overused, as I first personally noticed with commentary on the 1995 movie Strange Days and which was quite an influence on me at the time. Naturally, I was rather proud of myself for coming up with the phrase “Strange days indeed,” but it soon turned out that an even more considerable achievement would have been to find a reference to the movie that didn’t include it.

    I hear what you’re saying about your girlfriend, and had much the same experiences a while ago with my now wife, although perhaps we shouldn’t criticize Koreans too much: there are nothing like the blatant lies about the pill perpetuated by the Japanese medical/abortion industry for decades for instance, and which give many if not most Japanese women a blind negative attitude towards it not unlike Koreans’ one towards…marijuana…, and while we can criticize the abysmal state of sex education here till the cows come home I actually received none whatsoever myself, although this was more a fluke of going to 6 different high schools in 3 countries in 3 years as a teenager, always arriving and leaving just after or before I was due to receive it at the particular school, rather than it being absent from the curriculum in either the UK, New Zealand or Australia of course. Fortunately my parents were very cool and had no-nonsense attitudes towards it, with the result that by the age of 12 or so I’d certainly read and probably knew much more about it (and sexual abuse, and rape, and so on) than 90% of Western 18 year-olds, regardless of their actual experiences. My wife and friends would say that that explains a lot, but let’s not go there.

    If you or anyone else is interested by the way, you can see the basic biology of sex that Korean children learn in their middle-school first grade “technology and home management” textbooks, or their 중1 기술 & 가정 books in Korean (I used them to study Korean – you can read more about that here), and they do talk about adolescence and relationships a little too…which the 13 year-old students have to write out verbatim in notebooks and then do multiple-choice tests on. I think there may be a little in their ethics/도덕 books too, and in textbooks for later grades.

    I haven’t seen those AIDS advertisements sorry, although they do ring a very faint bell though.

    Oranckay, thank you very much for your comments, which must have taken some quite considerable time on your part, and so to give them the response that they deserve I’ll hold off until I’ve had a good night’s sleep!

    Edit: better make that two nights sorry…

  15. Rwellor said, on December 14, 2008 at 2:06 pm

    James,

    I, also, have no idea what we promised Daejeon. I have a link somewhere and will find it. We were talking about “gaze” in some way.

    I’ll get back to you. ;-)

  16. James Turnbull said, on December 14, 2008 at 2:29 pm

    Rwellor, that’s cool, I found it. Talk to you about it soon…or maybe when you get back from your trip home that I read about on your blog somewhere? When are you going?

  17. Driftingfocus said, on December 14, 2008 at 6:04 pm

    Creepy note: A waygook friend of mine told me once that while she and her co-teacher were talking about relationships, that the co-teacher said she was having trouble conceiving, and asked my friend if she thought that the EIGHT abortions she had might have anything to do with it.

    *This* is why Korea needs to get on the contraceptive side of things. They have few enough women who *want* to have kids, and they should try to save the ovaries of those that do!

  18. James Turnbull said, on December 14, 2008 at 9:20 pm

    Driftingfocus, what can I say? I couldn’t agree more, although I think that…eight (OMG) would definitely be at the extreme limit of even the Korean bell curve for numbers of abortions.

  19. Driftingfocus said, on December 15, 2008 at 9:27 am

    That’s definitely above the curve, and I was shocked to hear it, but what really bothers me is that if I heard that in, say, the US or Canada, I’d think the person had some sort of psychological problem, whereas here it’s just because they have no sex-ed.

  20. James Turnbull said, on December 15, 2008 at 11:33 pm

    Oranckay,

    sorry again for the wait, and I’d echo you when you said that “I agree with most of your conclusions but think there are a few problematic points along the way.” Well, just the one really, and that is our differing interpretations of what was written in the original article(s) about Kim So-mi only discovering what the contraceptive pill was (or not) during the shooting of the commercial. With the proviso that – not that you mention this, but I think that I should – she certainly provided a convenient “hook” for the subject of contraceptive use in Korea, which I may well have overused in the post, I did interpret the original Korean and the English translation in the newspaper article that way, and while I hate to focus on (English) semantics, and accept that you may have wanted to put your comment differently or more strongly in a comment that my blog host doesn’t allow you to edit unfortunately, you do acknowledge the possibility of my interpretation by saying that you don’t “necessarily” see how the Korean “means that she only discovered what the shoot was about when she arrived”, and also by pointing out that “광고를 찍으면서” “can just as easily” not literally mean while shooting the advertisement. Or in other words, the Korean is vague enough for both our interpretations to be valid I think.

    Which brings us to the additional evidence you provide for your interpretation that “since no Korean speaker would assume it is even within the range of possibility that she hadn’t even heard of the stuff, the Korean speaker will thus understand the sentence to mean that she only learned how great it is after she started working with them.” Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that, for I have ample first-hand experience of the naivety and ignorance of all too many Korean speakers (and their friends) on even the basic biology of reproduction, let alone what types of contraception are available, what they look like, and how to use them. And, other than yourself, given the lack of commenters disagreeing with me about that point so far then I strongly suspect that most of my readers could and would probably say much the same, or at least don’t think it’s so wrong as to be sufficiently motivated to call me up on it. Even in the United States all too many women think that douching with cola is an effective contraceptive for instance, so it certainly seems within “the range of possibility” that a in a country like Korea, where sex is still such a taboo subject, that many Koreans would never have heard of the pill.

    I’ve just realized that I’m possibly contradicting myself a little, for I think I argued in the post that she’s actually lying for the sake of saving face. Sigh. Regardless, having said all the above, I don’t mean to sound too harsh in my disagreement, and your interpretation may well still prove to be the more correct. I just think that, at the moment, there’s equal if not more evidence for my own.

    As for your point about Ok So-ri, actually I agree with you completely. I don’t have internet access on my laptop at work and so can’t recall exactly what I said about her sorry (I cut and pasted 10 comments and am work on my replies to them in MSWord, and quickly cut and paste my replies when I get home!), but I think I was using her as an example of the effects of irrational and decidedly backward Korean attitudes to sexuality rather than of sexism and/or of the unequal application of the adultery law per se, although I accept that it may well have looked like I was.

    Finally, your argument about not all pre-marital sex being the same…I more than concede your point, and have to say that I found your reply very informative. Thank you again for taking the time and effort to write it, and it certainly changes the way I will look at Korean sexuality in the future. And I must confess, although I’ll probably regret being too revealing about the workings of my blog here, I primarily included that point just to have a legitimate-sounding link to the much more widely-read DramaBeans blog, and have some of its traffic directed in my direction via the trackback. So I didn’t put enough thought into it, and you were quite correct to call me out on it (and I’m glad you did).

  21. Joie said, on December 20, 2008 at 5:49 am

    …and I was beginning to think there might be something wrong with the pills made in Korea , a number of Koreans I asked choose not to use the pill. Reasons are always “It’s not 100% sure.” or “Can still get pregnant even with pill.” I mean please what’s up with that?

  22. Driftingfocus said, on December 20, 2008 at 7:14 pm

    Well, they’re not 100% sure. They’re around 99% which, yes, is damn close, but it’s not 100%. It’s also only 99% sure if you take the pills exactly as listed. Most doctors will tell you that given the way your average woman takes them, which is somewhat irregular, the true efficacy rate is closer to 90-95%. It’s not a good argument against using them, but it might explain those statements.

  23. James Turnbull said, on December 21, 2008 at 11:50 am

    Joie, the Koreans you asked may have chosen not to use the pill for any number of reasons.

    One the one hand, considering the strange mix of modern and (decidedly backward) traditional beliefs Koreans have about pregnancy and childbirth, and with sex education being so woefully inadequate here like I explained, then I imagine there’s a lot of urban myths and old wife’s tales about contraception here that may have influenced them not to use the pill. On top of that, there’s also those hypocritical notions of “women’s virtue” here too, which gave my then girlfriend now wife, for instance, the firm opinion that only couples about to be married should use the pill, although I soon persuaded her otherwise.

    On the other hand, on the Korean internet there’s literally thousands of forums and information sites on just about every conceivable topic out there, so Korean women (and men) do ultimately have access to all the information they need. And not that it’s the final word by any means, but what Wikipedia has to say on the subject roughly matches what Driftingfocus said, and it took my wife a good, hell…30 seconds or so to find exactly the same information in Korean.

    I guess I’m just saying that we can’t generalize, although I admit that if we were talking about Japanese women instead then I probably would, as every Japanese woman I’ve met (albeit not many) refuses point blank to ever even just consider that the pill might be a more effective and safer form of contraception than say…the withdrawal method. That’s what four decades of scaremongering by the Japanese medical and abortion industry does to you…

  24. gordsellar said, on January 1, 2009 at 9:21 pm

    James,

    While I’d like to take credit for the phrase — it certainly sounds like the kind of thing I’d write — I can find any reference to it. It does suit perfectly the point I’ve been thinking about off and on since my first year here, when an older friend who’d been here just a little longer than me said, “You know, they dress like us, so we mistake Koreans as being like us. But this society is radically, radically different from ours. Under all that Western clothing and behind the media and the gadgets is something far different from the world we see when we look at them.”

    Which I’ve come to find is true in some ways, not so true in others. The place is in such a flux.

    Anyway, one thing I thought I’d mention is what I’ve seen in the Ideas Cycle. (Like a media cycle, and related to it closely, I suspect.) Every semester, a few specific ideas gain the minds of students, and those specific ideas seem to dominate the discussions I have them lead, the issues I have them explore, or whatever. It also dominates student writing, and even extracurricular student magazine contributions. This last semester, one of the main issues was the woeful state of sex education in middle and high schools — which is easy enough to talk about — but also, the commonly-suggested complaint was that students wanted to receive sex education in university. They agreed it should be fixed in middle and high school, but were somewhat skeptical about whether it would be, and in the meantime, Universities, they claimed, could lead the way. Most of the students who brought this up at all were, unsurprisingly, female.

    (And occasionally, a male student — especially one of a strong religious inclination — proceeded to castigate the class as a whole for their wantonness. I swear, I had to ask him to be respectful and not assume that (a) he knows what their sex lives are like from opinions expressed in class, and (b) not to play God and be judgmental of his classmates, as nobody had elected him to the position.)

    Their proposed solution, in any case, is interesting. It doesn’t look like such a good strategy given how early so many Korean kids seem to be starting their sex lives.

    (And I’m a bit dubious about the imbalance. A few other possibilities might be that people in any society, but especially — because of the stresses and taboos you mention — young women in Korea, are much less likely to tell the truth about taboo experiences, or to leave out the facts depending on who is asking and in what context.)

    (And I have the impression this also plays into health care. Gynecologists supposedly ask conventionally not, “Are you sexually active?” but rather, “Are you married?” And some percentage of women avoid visits to the gynecologist because they are unmarried, even when it’s obvious they need to see one. What Oranckay describes about certain cultural attitudes,. that’s all well and good, but it doesn’t line up so well with, er, science, medicine, and any sense of valuing these women’s health.)

    Finally: on AIDS commercials, one of my best students ever did a long presentation at the end of my fist semester here, on the need for advertising about Safe[r] Sex and promoting condom use. She said she’d seen plenty such commercials while living abroad — I can’t recall when or where — but seen scarce few of them in Korean TV. She gave a pretty interesting analysis of what you might call the “semiotics of AIDS-related PSAs”, using a couple of American examples she found online and then pointing out in which ways they would need to be changed for a Korean audience to respond optimally.

    I didn’t know there were AIDS-related PSAs on TV in Korea, though now if someone has a link, I’d love to see whatever’s been aired.

    By the way, James, it would so rock if you could get some kind of doohickey here to allow commenters to subscribe to updates on threads. I never remember to check back for new comments, but if you automated, I’d be grateful!

  25. Driftingfocus said, on January 2, 2009 at 12:51 am

    Gordsellar: If you’re running wordpress, to check posts you have left comments on, just go here: http://dashboard.wordpress.com/wp-admin/index.php?page=my-comments

  26. gordsellar said, on January 2, 2009 at 1:21 am

    Ah, but that just adds another site for me to have to go and check, instead of having to remember to come here.

    Unless, of course, there’s a way of filtering over those wordpress.com comments onto a dashboard widget on my own standalone installation?

  27. gordsellar said, on January 2, 2009 at 1:29 am

    Oh, and I forgot to add: one thing that blew me away was how one of my students to hailed from China was pretty surprised at how underdeveloped the sex education is here. She has long been involved in peer sex education in her home country. (As in she was a volunteer who led “straight talk” instructional sessions about contraception, sexual etiquette, sexual health, and so on with students of her own age. Probably quite literally “straight” talk, but anyway.) I have no idea whether it was a government-initiated campaign, or a university initiative, or what, but she suggested it was not uncommon, at least in bigger cities in China.

  28. gordsellar said, on January 2, 2009 at 1:30 am

    Er, “to hailed from”?

    “who hailed from”, rather. Sorry!

  29. Driftingfocus said, on January 2, 2009 at 9:48 am

    Gordsellar: I dunno, but I would not be surprised if there were a plugin for it.

  30. James Turnbull said, on January 5, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    Arrrgh! Gord, sorry for taking so long to reply in the first place (this post took up more of the weekend than expected), and on top of that thanks to the vagaries of WordPress 2.7, often too clever for its own good, I’ve just lost the 30 minutes I spent working on one! I’ve got to jog and then go to work now, but I’ll make sure to redo it as soon as I get back home tonight. In the meantime, thanks for helping him with the technical issue Drifitingfocus.

    (10:30pm) And here I am. First up, I’m still pretty sure that you did actually say that phrase Gord – I thought of you even before I’d finished typing – but in hindsight I think it may have been in your emails rather than comments here or posts on your own blog; I’ll give you a buzz if I find it. On a more serious point though, I’d have to disagree with you on the dubiousness of the imbalance between the sexes found by the survey, if only on degree. With the proviso that all surveys of this nature will always have some degree of over and under-reporting, judging by the careful attention given to finding a representative sample, the training of those giving and explaining the questionnaires, and the emphasis throughout of the respondents’ needs for privacy then I’d be surprised if the accuracy of this particular survey wasn’t at the limits of what could be practically achieved. Nevertheless, they do still acknowledge the problem and take it into account in their conclusions.

    I’m intrigued though, by all the recent attention that sex education is receiving from young people, and would be grateful if you had any possible explanations for it. Unfortunately I wouldn’t know where to start myself, and seeing as how I can go whole months without so much as speaking to anybody between the ages of 15 and 25 then you’ve probably got your ear much more attuned to the Korean “Voice of Yoof” than I do. I’m also very interested in what your student had to say about how American AIDS-related PSAs would have to be adapted for a Korean audience, and regardless will answer your request for information on what Korean equivalents there have been by writing about them myself, although it’ll have to wait until February unfortunately.

    Finally I hear what you’re saying about Gynecologists (to which I’d add Pharmacists), and I’d have to say I share your female students’ enthusiasm for sex-ed classes at university: too late for sure, but much better than nothing, and more importantly a crucial step in the Korean public belatedly acknowledging that female sexuality is not magically turned on upon a women’s wedding night and just as readily turned off once she becomes pregnant. Which perhaps sounds a little exaggerated to other readers, but then going back to this post and from that my thesis topic, the big deal is that there was no discussion of women’s sexuality outside of marriage before the 2002 World Cup, and judging by the results of the survey for one the Korean public still has quite some way to go before acknowledging that big, randy elephant in the room!

    P.S. If I didn’t offer it already, congrats on getting tenure at your university.

  31. gordsellar said, on January 7, 2009 at 1:12 am

    James,

    No worries. BTW Driftingfocus mentioned that there must be a plugin but that means *you’d* have to install it, I think. I can’t install a follow-up subscriptions plugin on my site for your blog! (Wish I could!)

    Hey, I’ll take credit for the phrase, no worries. It probably was in an email, somewhere.

    Maybe my dubiousness is misplaced. Then again, I have had enough chats with friends in the sciences back home — where academic standards are waaaaaay stricter, from all I’ve heard — who told me horror stories of being asked to re-try their surveys until they got the results desired, that now I’m leery about anything involving respondents electing to reveal sensitive information. But I haven’t read the paper itself, so it’s a more blanket distrust of surveys.

    I’m not sure I could point to any single reason why sex ed (and a couple of other topics, like pop psychology, Minerva, and immigrant workers’ rights) were such hot topics among students in the last semester. Topics like these surface with great regularity and universality, however: they come up when students are picking debate topics, presentation issues, topics for writing essays about, and article themes for the uni English magazine.

    I suspect, given the very commonly shared stance on each topic — that the Internet needs firmer government control to prevent pop star suicides, that sex education is important but we should be careful so we don’t increase kids’ interest in sex; that poor migrant workers need to be treated better — that the topic and the angle alike are memes spread by the media, print media and TV documentaries alike.

    The one weird thing about what you said — the lack of discussions of womens’ sexuality outside of marriage — is that Korean film is so NOT like that. Older films have lots of unmarried people having sex. Yeah, transgressively in a lot of stories, but it’s like a micro-obsession in a lot of older film. But as I tell my students, films reveal so much about anxieties, which is the way they should be read: not as an image of a society, but an image of its anxieties, obsessions, and fantasies. The unspeakable in life is spoken much more loudly in film.

    Thanks, though I haven’t actually achieved tenure. I’m only tenure-track. Tenure would be many years (and publications, and positive student evaluations) away. :) But thanks!

  32. James Turnbull said, on January 9, 2009 at 8:28 pm

    Gord,

    No worries. BTW Driftingfocus mentioned that there must be a plugin but that means *you’d* have to install it, I think. I can’t install a follow-up subscriptions plugin on my site for your blog! (Wish I could!)

    Sorry, in that case I don’t think it’s possible. I’m only vaguely aware of what a plugin is actually, but I just checked and WordPress.com definitely doesn’t allow them sorry. .

    Hey, I’ll take credit for the phrase, no worries. It probably was in an email, somewhere.

    Maybe my dubiousness is misplaced. Then again, I have had enough chats with friends in the sciences back home — where academic standards are waaaaaay stricter, from all I’ve heard — who told me horror stories of being asked to re-try their surveys until they got the results desired, that now I’m leery about anything involving respondents electing to reveal sensitive information. But I haven’t read the paper itself, so it’s a more blanket distrust of surveys.

    Hey, I wouldn’t disagree with any of that. But yeah, the authors of this particular survey did seem to take great pains ensuring respondent’s anonymity, although the simple fact that that they had to physically mail their completed questionnaires in after completing them in their own time probably took care of most of that (and ensured that 80% did).

    I’m not sure I could point to any single reason why sex ed (and a couple of other topics, like pop psychology, Minerva, and immigrant workers’ rights) were such hot topics among students in the last semester. Topics like these surface with great regularity and universality, however: they come up when students are picking debate topics, presentation issues, topics for writing essays about, and article themes for the uni English magazine.

    I suspect, given the very commonly shared stance on each topic — that the Internet needs firmer government control to prevent pop star suicides, that sex education is important but we should be careful so we don’t increase kids’ interest in sex; that poor migrant workers need to be treated better — that the topic and the angle alike are memes spread by the media, print media and TV documentaries alike.

    Not that I’m subtly hinting that I expect you to do so without fail(!) in the future or anything, but it would be interesting to ask the reasons for students interest and if they remembered particular stories or internet memes, as I wouldn’t say that problems with sex education or immigrant worker’s rights (or rather, a lack of either) are any more frequent or prominent in the Korean media than they were, say, 5 years ago. Perhaps horror stories about both have reached a critical mass whereby it’s difficult not to know and have an opinion on them?

    I’m also particularly interested in the fact that they think that sex education is important but shouldn’t increase kids’ interest in sex in the process: why virtually the same conservative gut reaction as in, say, America, and despite the overwhelming evidence that the exact opposite is the case? Not that people that disdain sex education tend to be persuaded by scientific evidence of course, but it would be interesting project in the future for me to compare and contrast the motivations, membership, and rhetoric of Korean and American purveyors of such reactionary views.

    The one weird thing about what you said — the lack of discussions of womens’ sexuality outside of marriage — is that Korean film is so NOT like that. Older films have lots of unmarried people having sex. Yeah, transgressively in a lot of stories, but it’s like a micro-obsession in a lot of older film. But as I tell my students, films reveal so much about anxieties, which is the way they should be read: not as an image of a society, but an image of its anxieties, obsessions, and fantasies. The unspeakable in life is spoken much more loudly in film.

    Man, I’ve really got to hurry up with the actual evidence part of this blog series cum my thesis, yes? The particular one dealing with Korean film will be the next one – Part 3 – in it and will be written within the next four weeks, but in the meantime…well come to think it, you’re actually sort-of agreeing with me, yes?

    No rush or anything, but if you think of any specific names of movies that would be much appreciated, because I’ll only be echoing the comments on a handful of mid-90s movies from one of my sources in that post, and that’s about the full extent of my knowledge of “early” Korean cinema at the moment. Man…I’ve still got a lot of work to do!

    Thanks, though I haven’t actually achieved tenure. I’m only tenure-track. Tenure would be many years (and publications, and positive student evaluations) away. :) But thanks!

    Oops, although as soon as I typed it I realized that 3 years…? Tenure?!! LOL…I was a bit confused for a moment. But congrats nevertheless!

  33. Driftingfocus said, on January 9, 2009 at 8:44 pm

    Gordsellar – I was actually saying that *you* need to install the plugin, since you’re running wordpress.org, not .com

  34. James Turnbull said, on January 10, 2009 at 9:15 am

    Problem solved: a “Notify me of followup comments via email” box to check after comments was just added by WordPress.com last night. Yay!

  35. fatbear said, on January 20, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    hi i can’t see the post, all it shows are the comments. help!

  36. James Turnbull said, on January 20, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    Er…reseting? Clearing your browser cache and all cookies and so on? Sorry, but other than that I don’t know how I can help, as it’s working fine for me in IE, Firefox, Safari and Chrome, and on computers in two completely different locations too.

  37. fatbear said, on January 21, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    works in ie, thanks. i’ve been to korea too and yeah, there society has a crazy double standard on what males and women can do. i have a korean friend that fits all the stereotypes. for some reason she can’t even refuse a guy that is much (20+) older than her out on a date… i even asked her why the hell she did that and she wouldn’t answer. i guess you have to respect older people a disgusting degree. she also feels she can’t marry in her lifetime because she wants a career and doesn’t want to turn into a housewife. i think it’s possible to have both but, she feels it’s one or the other. i can’t stand the fact that she is discriminating against herself because she is female. i’m actually attempting to enlighten her to make decisions on what SHE wants and not what other people or her society wants.

  38. James Turnbull said, on January 22, 2009 at 5:02 pm

    Fatbear, glad it worked, and sorry I didn’t reply earlier.

    I’m not sure what to make of your friend. As I’ve discussed in this post, the evidence of the survey I examine suggests that women are relying on men for contraception largely for the sake of maintaining a virginal reputation and so on, but I highly doubt that that passivity extends to refusing requests for actual dates, which sounds like an issue specific to your friend only. And 20+? How old is she? Regardless of that though, I can fully appreciate her not wanting to marry, as it really is virtually impossible for a woman to have a family and a career here; see here and then here as for why, to which I’d quickly add the very telling fact that Korea has the highest gender gap in the OECD (and for that, see here!).

  39. fatbear said, on January 27, 2009 at 7:04 pm

    actually what i wrote was kinda random, but i feel women or youth in korea are too submissive. i mean that as in gender discrimination, females have less say at the workplace, home, in a relationship, etc, and in age. i have seen many hyungs(big bros) boss around ddong sengs(lil bros) even though they are both over 20 and should be considered adults (at least in the U.S.) i have seen dumb ddong sengs do whatever the hyungs say, and take even take their opinions and perceptions in life and easily saying it as if it were their own. like if he thinks this is stupid, then so does the ddong seng. they listen to what older people say what is right and wrong without analyzing it and deciding for themselves. idk, i just don’t see that situation as close to as common in the U.S. but just because someone is older or another gender and his/her views are different, we still keep our own opinions. i guess it maybe due to gender roles in society and the pressure to fulfill the roles. she is 26, and when i found out how old that guy was i said “that’s gross”. i’m a blunt person haha. she did not answer but by her response in her behavior i think she agreed… she has told me (on another occasion) that she doesn’t date for money also. i mean if your not dating for money/fame/promotion in that situation… i might just not want to know. also has anyone ever heard of the term “thief” being used on older women dating younger men? anyways, every korean girl i have been with has not cared about condoms. at first i thought the first korean was a slut or something haha. but all the other girls were the same. yeah, i would say they’re probably just too ashamed to even ask

  40. James Turnbull said, on January 28, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    From experience I think that Koreans are less accepting of elders’ or superiors’ opinions as you say, as they would often complain about both in my classes, my being out of their circle so to speak and therefore “safe”, but it’s certainly true that Korean society is very hierarchical and doesn’t exactly encourage perople standing up to stupidity or injustice by those of higher status than themselves.

    Sorry, but could you please pay more attention with your comments next time, like maybe by using paragraphs and punctuation? I don’t mean to be rude, but that was extremely difficult to read.

  41. Ben Snyder said, on February 4, 2009 at 12:44 am

    Just wanted to say thanks for bringing up this post! I’m a graduate student from Nazareth College in Rochester, NY, training to teach in South Korea. I’ll be raising this issue for debate during our student health workshop tonight, so I’ll post back later with how it turned out. Thanks again!

  42. James Turnbull said, on February 4, 2009 at 8:15 am

    Thanks, looking forward to it.

  43. philly said, on February 9, 2009 at 2:05 am

    Whats wrong with women being virtuous. Maybe Korea can delay the rapid degeneration of their society for another generation by not being as “advanced” as the rest of the West. Hail to traditional values when these values lead to anything but the moral decay that we see in our western culture.

  44. James Turnbull said, on February 9, 2009 at 9:02 am

    There’s nothing at wrong with women being “virtuous.” Being so concerned about it to the extent that one won’t use contraception is though, and one of the biggest abortion industries in the world is testament to that fact. The West may indeed be morally decayed and degenerate in this regard, but it’s not like young Koreans don’t have almost as much sex as their Western counterparts, and being open about it sure as hell seems to lead to happier and literally healthier sex lives for all, especially women.

  45. fatbear said, on February 19, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    i apologies if my comments will/have induce/d any negative or stupid comments. let me try to explain myself.
    first, i wouldn’t bother with reading this stuff if i didn’t legitimately care about my korean friend. sorry i went off on a tangent with the post, but only after i saw these problems in a friend that i actually realized what a problem it was. i would say yeah, my friend specifically got more sucked into society’s ideals than women normally have. or maybe it’s just her and she’s stupid? she also does not use contraceptives
    second, i’d have to say if you’re reading this stuff and thinking about getting laid after, you’re a loser.
    third, not a boast but just because my experiences with korean women were so, doesn’t mean it’ll be the same for anyone else.
    and finally, i don’t mean to offend anybody, i’m sorry

  46. Morbas said, on February 24, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    I have been reading this post and the entire thing has gotten me a little conffused. Are Korean women stupid, uninformed, or suppresed? I have been in Korea for about a month and my “view” is that in many was they are, for lack of a better word, “premitive”. I dont mean to insult anyone but that’s just my opinion. If you could, sum up the facts and tell me why Korean are so different. They act the same on the surface but there is a difference underneath that i can not place. I think it’s mostly because of my inexperience and my VERY limited understanding of the Korean language.

  47. James Turnbull said, on February 25, 2009 at 9:07 am

    Morbas, well mostly the latter two of course! Sorry, but it would take an hour or so for me to summarize why and I don’t really have the time, but if you check out some of the posts I link to in the sidebar you’d begin to get some sort of idea, and I’d recommend starting with this post on why Koreans (of both sexes) generally lack critical thinking skills and then this series here, here and here on the passive, submissive and inferior role that Neo-Confucianism assigns to women; sexual freedom for them does tend to work against their traditional role of being a mere vessel for the continuation of one male’s “life spirt” (for want of a better phrase).

  48. Nick said, on March 17, 2009 at 2:27 am

    Excellent article, I really enjoyed reading it. I have noticed the severe lack of knowledge and general ignorance towards sex, and particularly contraception, since arriving in Seoul. As such, I found this article particularly potent. I’m currently in a long term relationship with a Korean girl and know from personal experience that she was forced into sex during her past relationship. What I found even more disturbing than this knowledge, was her apparent indifference to it, how it seemed standard fare. I had to essentially spell it out to her that she had been raped.

    It just goes to show that different areas of Korean culture are progressing with an ever increasing disparity. Ignorance certainly isn’t bliss.

  49. betty said, on March 24, 2009 at 2:41 am

    ok, but men clearly don’t understand that the pill has some undesirable side effects like nausea and spotting, or having your period 3 times a month, not to mention mood alterations.

    Is it that hard to put on a condom? It’s still sexist to expect your girlfriend to feel nausea every other day just so you can ‘not interrupt’ sex.

  50. James Turnbull said, on March 24, 2009 at 7:33 am

    Betty, let me refer you to this comment by way of reply, to which I’d add that you’re generalizing far too much about men: these days, women in established relationships would be by far the most prolific users of the pill, so if the men in them didn’t know about those (exaggerated) side effects before getting together, it would be a pretty strange relationship where their female partners didn’t inform them pretty soon thereafter.

    It is indeed not hard to put on a condom (no pun intended), but there’s far more negatives to that method of contraception for both partners than just “not interrupting” sex, and I’d challenge your implied presumption that all women don’t mind (or even prefer) condoms whereas all men hate them, which is simply not true.

    Besides which, did you even read the post? Regardless of the benefits of using condoms and the (exaggerated) side effects of using the pill, the point of the post was that many Korean women aren’t even asking or insisting that their partners wear condoms, for fear of besmirching their virginal reputations. Saying that “men clearly don’t understand” the side-effects of using the pill is not just wrong, but completely irrelevant.

  51. questions said, on March 29, 2009 at 10:34 am

    what is the movie name of the picture above? the one a guy wearing soldier cloth and a girl on the left, both in same room?

  52. James Turnbull said, on April 23, 2009 at 10:14 am

    Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. The pictures are from this movie.

  53. BaikSong, JongMi said, on May 5, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    A question: Do you write all these things to tell what you feel over Korean society & culture and is that it? Or do you write to tell what u feel abt it and MORE, to listen to why for certain things that you dunt understand?

    If the latter were what u want, which is the reasercher’s way while the former is just a mere expat’s personal story of one’s feeling, you shud write in Korean to listen to Koreans’ opinions. Haven’t you studied Korean yet even though u research on Korean Sociology? Dont you know only some Koreans read these, not all and cuz it’s in English, they feel tired and even dont finish reading it all? If you want to listen to the real opinions and analyze a society and its sociology, listen to their opinions as well as yr main readers- expats! Isn’t it a mature way for a researcher to come down to the conclusion after the proper analysis?

    Even though I am good at English enough, I also felt lazy and tired to read to the end, so I dunt want to leave a comment but I’m sure that u will get a lot of different and explaining opinions that you’ve never imagined to get while you are just listening to the agreeable remarks and saying U just dunt get it.

    So… study Korean first and go to AGORA at daum.net and post yr writings :)
    U will get a lot of opinion which you’ve never got so far. As you might agree, Koreans are the No. 1 Internet citizens. All the dabatings are much more vivid than here :)

  54. James Turnbull said, on May 6, 2009 at 10:16 pm

    BaikSong, JongMi–just a quick note to say that I’ll reply properly just as soon as I can: it’s just that things are crazily busy at home right now sorry!

  55. James Turnbull said, on May 10, 2009 at 9:23 pm

    BaikSong, JongMi–Sorry for the delay.

    It is certainly true that I and this blog would greatly benefit from more feedback from Koreans, but that I’m not going to get many Korean readers if I only write in English. All granted, 100%. But I still have some big problems with what you wrote.

    You say or imply based on my writing in only English, that: this is just a blog by and for expats; that it’s “to tell what [I] feel over Korean society & culture and is that it” and not “to listen to why for certain things that [I] dunt understand”; and that I don’t listen to Korean’s opinions on anything.

    All of those are simply not true, and I’m not going to bother giving a detailed answer as to why, as you obviously just saw this one post, which you admit to not reading (and probably not understanding) all of, noticed that it was written in English by a non-Korean, and then just assumed all that about me and my blog, and decided to lecture me.

    At the moment I’m too busy with my two young kids, trying to make enough money for the 4 of us, and continuously trying to catch up with sleep to consider writing a Korean-language blog; apart from writing this one, then I literally don’t do anything else…no hobbies, no cinema trips, no holidays out of Busan…nada. When I have the time and energy once they’re a little older, then I’ll think about it, and try very hard not to assume that all other Koreans will never listen to what I say simply because I’m not Korean, like you did.

    In the meantime, input from my Korean wife, Korean friends, reading and translating Korean newspaper articles, and reading surveys and journal papers and so on written by Koreans will have to make do I’m afraid.

  56. JY Park said, on June 16, 2009 at 12:21 am

    I appreciate ur point.

    U r quite right about their ignorance of contraceptives.
    (”Been there, done that” stuff sucks, huh?)
    Hope Korean young women can have a better life than ‘moi,’ but getting laid issue or taking initiatives in bed or in relatiionships should be dealt with in a bigger frame of thier indenpendence. Talked to 20 something girls and i think they still have a long way to go in terms of their financial independence.(that’s quite more important…i think.) Too many of them just pick an easy way of life of being a dependent all their life.

    When i was a univ. student, ’smoking’ female students used to be slapped by male students in school cafeteria. ( long time ago? well, i graduated in 1993.) I’ve never been free from my education to be a ‘good’ girl here; not that i didn’t know it’s choking or din’t know how to do, but that it’s just my ambition to climb up the ladder came first and i negotiated ..to be sucessful as a woman in this society, i should maintain this good woman image. (Damn..how i hate this!) Well, i can speak freely about the topic, but i NEVER act. Pathetic, I know, but it’s just u can have everything in ur life, plus can’t find the right Kr guy. It’s just painful to even think about getting laid with a guy who thinks i am a slut, just because i want a friend with benefits, though i know they are available there – a bunch of them – within my reach and will enjoyt free ‘benefits.’ I don’t want marriage, but i want to be respected.

    I studied in an Eng. speaking country; and believe me…we (single Kr. girls there) sometimes rent our hair, lamenting ‘we’re dumb inside class and nuns outside class.’ Never dated ‘foreign men’ because the Kr. circle in a foreign country was very narrow and words spread back to Kr. (It’s a very small world.) (One of my cousins smoked in the hall of a lang. school in Sydney in 1992, and every relative in Kr. heard about it. U can never imagine how my parents brainwashed me be sending me over to study. My mother even went to a fortune teller to ask if all her daughters could marry as virgins.) I couldn’t bear my reputation being fouled that way. Thesedays, in cities like NY, LA, Vancouver or Sydney, the number of Kr is so big there is no worry about that.

    Some Kr girls have given a hard thought about it, and they know and they can get knowledge if they want to know. The thing is, actually one thing i found miserable, is Kr men hardly change. And there are things girls alone cannot change in relationships.

    Afraid getting nowhere except some self-pity stuff. (Darn & Sorry)

    My advice is never go to Agora (Daum) as a Korean suggested up there. It is where all losers of omega males tyr to feel rewarded by boasting their petty male egos as if cyber slandering could make thier petty dicks bigger. (Ooops, sorry again.)

  57. James Turnbull said, on June 18, 2009 at 11:16 pm

    Sorry I took so long to reply.

    I’m afraid I’ve lost track of what I said in this post and in the comments exactly, but it’s certainly true that I didn’t pay enough attention to the context of unmarried women’s (and men’s) lack of financial independence, although probably not by coincidence I started writing about that a lot shortly after writing this post (see here, here and here for starters). Over a year ago though, here I talked a little about the inequitable housework and curfew arrangements unmarried women and men generally have, so I’m not sure being dependent is all that “easy”!

    It’s very interesting hearing about life as a Korean university student – a first-hand account noticeably absent so far, and thank you for it – and I can well believe things like having cigarettes slapped out of your mouth by male students: hell, even 10 years later most women felt they had to hide it (or at least there were newspaper articles saying so), and it’s only been in the last 2 years or so I’ve really noticed a lot of women openly smoking in bars and so on (not so much on the street though).

    Living in the countryside in my first 3 years here, I can also understand how the closed, village-like nature of Korean society (which I’ve written about here) limits women’s freedom especially, and it impacted on my relationship with my now wife. Naturally, I can see how the same mentality would extend to Korean expat communities, and judging by what this Sydney-based(?) blogger writes of the behavior of Korean men in Australia (see here for instance), things may not have changed all that much really.

    Other than that, I don’t really know what else to add sorry. But on a final note though, judging by the survey discussed in this post, the prospect of “getting laid with a guy who thinks [they're] a slut” still figures very big in Korean women’s lives, I disagree that this is “one of those things girls alone cannot change in relationships.” Certainly Korean men’s mentalities about women’s sexuality is something that drastically needs to be changed, but while I don’t know if there was ever a period in any Western countries when men thought that women who insisted on using contraception were sluts, I’d wager good money that Western men began to accept using condoms (and not judging women based on that) much more because of women insisting on it than any fear of AIDS and unwanted pregnancy and so on (although those did still play a role). Similarly, this is just something Korean women are going to have to do for themselves.

    Sorry if that didn’t make much sense either, I’m quite tired here (took a long time to put my daughter to bed!).


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